NPR's Back Seat Book Club
Tue November 29, 2011
Kids' Book Club Takes 'Tollbooth' To Lands Beyond
Originally published on Wed May 23, 2012 11:14 am
Welcome to the second installment of NPR's Backseat Book Club! Every month, we invite kids to read a book along with us, and then send in their questions for the author.
Our book club selection for November is a classic that's celebrating a big anniversary. The Phantom Tollbooth — written by Norton Juster and illustrated by Jules Feiffer — was published 50 years ago. Juster tells NPR's Michele Norris that the story sprang from his own childhood.
"It was about a little boy, about 9 or 10 years old, who didn't much like school, didn't see the point of learning, didn't like doing much of anything — and of course that was me," Juster says.
The little boy in the story is named Milo. He lives in a state of constant boredom until one day a tollbooth magically appears in his bedroom with a map and a series of strange instructions. Milo dusts off an old toy car and drives through the tollbooth to the Lands Beyond.
Milo has the adventure of a lifetime. He visits places like Digitopolis and Dictionopolis, and he meets people with silly habits and a very odd way of speaking. The book is so chock-full of puns, riddles and wordplay that publishers at first didn't think it was appropriate for kids.
"They said: 'Well, this is not a children's book ... Vocabulary's too difficult, the issues and ideas are much too complex. The kids will never get the jokes and wordplay,' " Juster recalls.
But they did — and Juster knew they would because he grew up in a household where linguistic absurdity was the norm. Every day his father had a new play on words to try out on his son. He used to put his arm around Juster and say things like: "You're a good kid, and I'd like to see you get ahead. You need one."
At first, Juster found his father's puns confusing. But slowly he got the hang of it. "I began to say, 'I understand that, and I can do that.' And that was a great, liberating part of my life," Juster says.
The Phantom Tollbooth had another major influence in addition to Juster's father. "When I grew up in the 1930s, all those Marx Brothers movies were coming out. And they were, of course, absolutely insane until you saw them two or three times and realized that their particular kind of insanity made as much sense as thinking about it in very realistic terms."
But it wasn't just the brilliant use of words that made The Phantom Tollbooth so successful. The illustrations by cartoonist Jules Feiffer don't just adorn the text — they're an essential part of the story, perfectly blending word and picture.
There's quite a story behind the partnership between Juster and Feiffer. "It's one of those marvelous accidents of life," Juster says.
Juster ran into Feiffer one day in the Brooklyn Navy Yard, where Juster was stationed. It was a chance meeting, but a year or so later, they were living together — along with one other friend — in a duplex apartment in Brooklyn Heights. Juster lived on the top floor, and Feiffer and the friend lived below.
"When I wrote, I paced. And the pacing, I guess, kind of got on their nerves," Juster says. "So Jules came up, wanted to know what I was doing, and read some of the stuff. And he liked it, went away without my knowing it, and produced a whole bunch of absolutely wonderful drawings. And to this day I cannot see that book any other way. That book, those illustrations belong together, and will never change."
Olivia Hughes, 10, a book club member from Richardson, Texas, particularly liked the map of the Lands Beyond at the very beginning of The Phantom Tollbooth. Turns out, there's a funny story behind how it got there. As a kid, many of the books that Juster loved had maps at the front — and he wanted the same thing for The Phantom Tollbooth. So he asked Feiffer to draw a map of the Lands Beyond — but didn't have much luck.
"There are certain things he either doesn't like to draw or doesn't think he can draw — and one of them was maps," Juster says. "And he said, 'I'm not going near a map.' (And actually, if you've ever driven anywhere with Jules, you will know why he doesn't like maps.) But anyway, I sat down and I drew the map. And then Jules took it and traced over it so it looked like his drawing."
Many young readers were curious to know more about Juster's life as a child. Emma, 12, from Springfield, Va., says she and her siblings like to make up stories together — and was wondering whether Juster did, too.
"All the time," he says. "I lived for stories."
Juster used to write short plays and then cast his family members in the leading roles. He, of course, got to be the director.
"Stories are a very important part of my life ... Even to this day, I don't think I can deal with important world issues or issues related to me as an adult without sometimes recasting them as stories," he says.
After 50 years, Juster is still flummoxed as to why his book turned out to be such a success. Children surprise you, he says. When they read a book, they may experience it or appreciate it in a way that's totally different than what the author intended. But that's OK, he says. Sometimes writers feel like their job is to communicate a specific idea or a finite point of view. "I think the idea rather is to open up a piece of the world to a more creative encounter," Juster says.
More Questions For Norton Juster
My favorite character was the green-eyed, curly-haired, big-foot, broad-shouldered, round-bodied, extremely enormous monster ... Have you met anyone like this lately? -- Phoebe Abbruzzese, 7, Longview, Wash.
"I meet people like that every day. They're the people who explain things in the way they want you to understand them ... That demon wants them to get very relaxed and easy so that the demons can come and destroy them ...
"All those demons that go through the book and appear finally at the end in their most frightening form were the demons that were my demons as a child and are still around. I still know all of those people very well, and I'm just a little bit better at avoiding them or sidestepping them."
Of all the amazing and fantastical inhabitants of the Lands Beyond, which was your favorite to write? -- GP Aroldi, sixth-grade teacher at Roosevelt Elementary in River Edge, N.J.
"There are a lot of them that I like, but some stick in mind: I love the midget giant fat man thin man. Because ... it was the only way I could ever understand relativity. ... You understand everything in terms of these four different people who are the same person; at least that's my way of thinking about it."
Tell us more about your writing process. -- Michele Norris
"Probably 80 to 90 percent of what I've written is nonsense, and I just throw it out. But there's always something in there that I can hang on to and make use of, and that's a very valuable thing ...
"I'm a virtuoso reviser anyway — I do things 20 and 30 times ... I will do a lot of revising to change the rhythm of a book ... I'll spend time putting an extra comma in, or taking a two-syllable word and making a three-syllable word in its place, or the reverse — always in the service of trying to keep that story moving at a pace that will engage the people reading it."
GUY RAZ, HOST:
From NPR News, this is ALL THINGS CONSIDERED. I'm Guy Raz.
MELISSA BLOCK, HOST:
And I'm Melissa Block.
It's time now for our regular feature for young listeners, NPR's Backseat Book Club. Every month, we choose a book and ask kids to read it, then to send in their questions for the author.
PHOEBE ABBRUZZESE: This is Phoebe Abbruzzese. My favorite character was the green-eyed, curlyhaired, big-foot, broad-shouldered, round-bodied, extremely enormous monster. Have you met anyone like this lately? Bye.
BLOCK: That's one of many questions we received about our book club selection for November. It's a classic celebrating a big anniversary - "The Phantom Tollbooth," written by Norton Juster, and illustrated by Jules Feiffer. It was published 50 years ago.
NPR's Michele Norris recently talked with Juster, who says the story sprang from his own childhood.
NORTON JUSTER: It was about a little boy, about 9 or 10 years old, who didn't much like school, didn't see the point of learning, didn't like doing much of anything. And of course, that was me.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
MICHELE NORRIS, HOST:
The little boy in the story is named Milo. He lives in a state of constant boredom until one day, a tollbooth magically appears in his bedroom with a map and a series of strange instructions. Milo dusts off an old toy car, and drives through the tollbooth to the Lands Beyond. He has the adventure of a lifetime.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
NORRIS: He visits places like Digitopolis and Dictionopolis, and he meets people with silly habits and a very odd way of speaking.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN #1: (Reading) Have you ever heard a blindfolded octopus unwrap a cellophane-covered bathtub?
NORRIS: The book is so chockfull of puns, riddles and wordplay that publishers at first didn't think it was appropriate for kids.
JUSTER: And so they said, well, this is not a children's book. Firstly, the vocabulary is too difficult; the issues and ideas are much too complex. The kids will never get the jokes and wordplay.
NORRIS: Oh, but they did. And Juster knew they would because he grew up with a father who loved linguistic absurdity.
JUSTER: I would come in sometimes, and he would be sitting there, and he would look at me and very seriously say: Aha. I see you're coming early since lately. You used to be behind before, but now, you're first at last. I had no idea what he was talking about, of course.
(SOUNDBITE OF LAUGHTER)
JUSTER: And the reaction of most kids to stuff like that is just, ugh. And he'd see I didn't know what he was talking about, so he'd come over, put his arm around and me and say: You're a good kid, and I'd like to see you get ahead. You need one.
(SOUNDBITE OF LAUGHTER)
JUSTER: And after a while, the ughs dropped away, and I began to say: I understand that, and I can do that. And that was a great, liberating part of my life.
(SOUNDBITE OF LAUGHTER)
NORRIS: Was this book, in some way, a tip of the hat to your dad?
JUSTER: In many ways, yeah. The two most important influences on it were he and the Marx Brothers, because when I grew up in the 1930s, all those Marx Brothers movies were coming out. And they were, of course, absolutely insane until you saw them two or three times and realized that their particular kind of insanity made as much sense as thinking about it in very realistic terms.
NORRIS: Take a listen to the stage production of "The Phantom Tollbooth," and you can hear the influence of the Marx Brothers as Milo receives a hearty welcome by advisers to the king of Dictionopolis.
(SOUNDBITE OF STAGE PLAY, "THE PHANTOM TOLLBOOTH")
UNIDENTIFIED MAN #2: Are you the one who was calling for the king?
UNIDENTIFIED MAN #3: Soliciting the sovereign?
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Petitioning the potentate?
UNIDENTIFIED MAN #2: Justin, Justin. Justin...
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Haranguing his highness?
UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: (as Milo) I guess so.
UNIDENTIFIED GROUP: Well, in that case...
UNIDENTIFIED MAN #2: Greetings.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN #3: Salutations.
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Good afternoon.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN #2: By order of King Azaz...
UNIDENTIFIED GROUP: We welcome you.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN #2: To our country.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN #3: Nation.
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Land. Realm.
UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: (as Milo) Don't all of those words mean the exact same thing?
UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Certainly. Precisely.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN #2: Exactly.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN #3: Indubitably.
NORRIS: "The Phantom Tollbooth" was an indubitable success because the book so perfectly blends word and picture. The illustrations by the renowned cartoonist Jules Feiffer don't just adorn the text, they're an essential part of the story. And it turns out there's quite a story behind the partnership between Norton Juster and Jules Feiffer.
JUSTER: So one of those marvelous accidents of life. I was in the Navy at that time, and I was just in - the last place I was going to be stationed was in the Brooklyn Navy Yard, and we just ran into each other. I think Jules describes each of us putting out garbage one day. And in about a year or two, we took a large duplex apartment - the two of us and another friend of ours - at the other end of Brooklyn Heights.
I lived on the top floor, mainly because the kitchen was there, and I did most of the cooking. Those two lived on the floor below. And when I wrote, I paced. And the pacing, I guess, kind of got on their nerves. So Jules came up, wanted to know what I was doing, and read some of the stuff. And he liked it, went away without my knowing it, and produced a whole bunch of absolutely wonderful drawings.
And to this day, I cannot see that book any other way. That book, those illustrations belong together and will never change
NORRIS: We have a letter from one of our young readers who has a special appreciation for the illustrations. Her name is Olivia. Let's listen to her.
OLIVIA HUGHES: Hi. My name is Olivia Hughes. I'm 10 years old, and I'm from Richardson, Texas. I thought that the map at the beginning was really resourceful. And I was wondering if the illustrator worked on it alone after reading the story, or if the author worked on it with the illustrator.
NORRIS: Olivia has a future in journalism.
JUSTER: Yes, I was going to say.
(SOUNDBITE OF LAUGHTER)
NORRIS: Well, let's talk about the map because it really is wonderful. When you open up the book, before you get to the story, there is this fantastic map of the Lands Beyond.
JUSTER: First of all, I wanted to have map and papers because in my early reading as a child, the books that had map and papers - I loved the Arthur Ransom books. And I was talking to Jules about it, and Jules was very funny. There are certain things he either doesn't like to draw, or doesn't think he can draw. And one of them was maps. And he said, I'm not going near a map. And actually, if you've ever driven anywhere with Jules...
(SOUNDBITE OF LAUGHTER)
JUSTER: ...you will know why he doesn't like maps. But anyway, he - I sat down, and I drew the map. And then Jules took it and traced over it so it looked like his drawing.
NORRIS: Many of our young readers were really interested in your life as a child, including a young girl named Emma.
EMMA: Hi, my name is Emma from Springfield, Virginia, and I'm 12 years old. My brother and sister and I love to make up stories together. Did you ever do that when you were younger?
JUSTER: Just all the time.
(SOUNDBITE OF LAUGHTER)
JUSTER: You know, I lived for stories. And I would also - one thing I did as a kid - I loved doing - was writing little plays or playlets. And of course, I would then draft the entire family who had to play all these parts, while I was the director. But - no, stories are a very important part of my life. I don't think I - even to this day, I don't think I can deal with important world issues, or issues relating to me as an adult, without sometimes recasting them as stories.
NORRIS: You still do that today?
JUSTER: Oh, yes.
NORRIS: After 50 years, Norton Juster is still flummoxed as to why his book is such a success. But in terms of children's literary tastes, he offers this.
JUSTER: What children understand - when they read a story, they understand it, then they'll tell you about it. It may not be what I had in mind, but it's what they have in mind. And that's the important thing. And we tend, in our teaching and sometimes in our writing, as if our job is to communicate a finite idea or a finite, you know, point of view. And I think the idea, rather, is to open up a piece of the world to a more creative encounter.
NORRIS: Well, I think we had many, many children share with us what they thought of this book. And I think with all of those questions that were sent in to us - and to you, specifically - what we heard was a huge thank you...
JUSTER: Oh, well thank you. It was fun.
NORRIS: ...for the joy and the wisdom in this book. And thank you for taking time to talk to us.
JUSTER: Oh, great.
NORRIS: This has been great fun.
JUSTER: Thank you.
NORRIS: And big thanks to everyone who sent in their questions. We're thrilled that so many classrooms and families are joining NPR's Backseat Book Club, and so a bit of breaking news. We've selected our next book. It's less well-known than earlier selections, but no less special. For December, we'll be reading "Breadcrumbs" by Anne Ursu. It's a magical winter tale of friendship and adventure, featuring a girl named Hazel and a boy named Jack.
Head to npr.org to read the first chapter, and be sure to email us your questions so we can share them with the author in our next Backseat Book Club segment.
Happy reading. I'm Michele Norris. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.